Fred's comment on HBD

Fred’s comment (at Steve Sailer’s blog):

Blame Hitler. Group differences were accepted by the mainstream by the early 20th century. Eugenics was considered a common sense policy. Then Hitler came along and killed the brand.

Aside from Steve Sailer himself, who comes across like a well adjusted, well meaning guy, most HBD bloggers aren't doing a lot to help revive the brand. They don't just point out group differences, they revel in them. They like it too much. It's unseemly, and it turns people off.

Steve once wrote of Democrats that they exude a "faint whiff of personal failure". There is a little of that too with most non-Steve HBD bloggers.

Comments

[anon]

This was the best comment ever put on a HBD blog.

It begs the question, "What public relations policy is necessary for greater acceptance of HBD?"

[OneSTDV]

First part of comment: Dead on. It's a shame that knowledge of group differences got stigmatized.

Second part: Trite ad hominem.

[AshAndMistyInLove]

"Aside from Steve Sailer himself, who comes across like a well adjusted, well meaning guy, most HBD bloggers aren't doing a lot to help revive the brand. They don't just point out group differences, they revel in them. They like it too much. It's unseemly, and it turns people off."

So HBD is about group differences; in other words, differences between races in within each race. Well, there is certainly a lot of "human biodiversity" within the human species that has nothing to do with psychometrics, but it seems that only differences they are concerned about are IQ differences. There are certainly differences for racial group's propensity for developing myopia and within group variation of SNPs for fasting glucose, but these type of biodiversity is never discussed. Because of the political nature of HBD, it is clear to me that those who accept it are not primarily disinterest scientists who are not subordinate to the political agenda.

Go ahead talk about how African subhuman intelligence is an important part of "HBD"; I guess it makes HBDers feel good about labeling racial groups inferior.

[Michael T. Golden]

Thanks for re-posting this great thought.

If anybody in the HBD-sphere feels actual happiness when you find out that black people score lower on whatever metric, I wish you would just leave the internet forever, and consider whether you are a genuine racist.

HBDers are always going to be called racists. That does not mean we shouldn't care that some actual racists are making us look bad.
It reminds me of Coolidge's speech to the MA senate: "Expect to be called a demagogue, but don't be a demagogue."
We should expect to be called racists, but more importantly we need to not be associated with actual racists. I think HS does a good job on that front.

[Linda]

"It begs the question, 'What public relations policy is necessary for greater acceptance of HBD?'"

Focus on all the ways blacks are genetically superior to whites. Larger genitals, more muscle mass, denser bones, more speed, more reach, jump higher, run faster, look younger as they age, more rhythm, etc.

[Phil]

Half Sigma, I agree 100% - we need a better spokesman for HBD.

On a related topic, you stoped covering the fate of TTT law school graduates a while back but they face increasing competition from India according to Bloomberg - and the competition from India will hit non TTT lawyers as well
_

Good luck competing with folks who pay no bar dues, student loans, CLE fees, and work hard for 8 grand a YEAR:

From Bloomberg.com (link: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aBo8DnfekWZQ

(Bloomberg) -- Bruce Masterson, chief operating officer of Socrates Media LLC, asked his outside counsel to customize a residential lease for all 50 U.S. states in 2003. The firm's estimate: about $400,000. He rejected that price tag and hired QuisLex, in Hyderabad, India, which did it for $45,000.

``It was good quality,'' said Masterson, whose Chicago-based company publishes legal forms on the Internet. ``We've been working together ever since.''

Clients are pushing law firms like Jones Day and Kirkland & Ellis to send basic legal tasks to India, where lawyers tag documents and investigate takeover targets for as little as $20 an hour. The firms are reacting to a trend that will move about 50,000 U.S. legal jobs overseas by 2015, according to Boston- based Forrester Research Inc.

[AllanF]

Unfortunately reading Steve's comments requires something akin to the industrial gold mining operation in Pale Rider. There are a few nuggets there, but you have to silt away a half a mountain to find them.

It's worth the effort often enough, but who has the time for it?

[Mark]

So true!!!

And fuck Hitler. (Not just for this, of course...)

[Kiwiguy]

Yeah, I was struck by how succinctly Fred managed to capture the problem for HBD acceptance. The 'brand' was indeed killed by the Nazis.

It is amazing to read that common sense ideas about group differences used to be routinely accepted. Even socialists like George Bernhard Shaw & Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger encouraged sterilization to reduce poverty.

[FoShizzle]

True Dat!

[OneSTDV]

"Because of the political nature of HBD, it is clear to me that those who accept it are not primarily disinterest scientists who are not subordinate to the political agenda."

Wow, you're perceptive.

I've fully admitted that my disseminating knowledge of HBD is for political purposes. HBD is probably a misnomer, but it's caught on. What most people mean when they say HBD is really bioconservatism.

But we can't really go back and change the name. It's already entrenched. The fact that you believe anyone has even implied that "HBD" is an unbiased examination of scientific evidence shows you either don't read any of the blogs or you enjoy attributing statements to people that have never made them.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

While we are on the subject of bad marketing decisions is it true that Richard Spencer of Alternative Right is a practicing Odinist/Thorist/Nordic-Paganist?

If he is, may I ask why Spencer doesn't want to revive the worship of the Hellenic deities such as Orpheus and Hyperion?

Are the Greek gods not blond enough for him?

[APH]

Fred's comment is largely true, but who, if any, spokesperson for the brand would actually get respected on a national level. What percent of the adult population even knows who Steve Sailer is (1 in 1,000 ?). No doubt he has the respect of a few mainstream pundits and scholars, but he still writes movie reviews for goodness sake. No politician will touch on anything remotely controversial about HBD because it's the slippery slope to being called a racist which is political isolation. Pat Buchanan's the closest thing there is but you can probably count the number of his non white (and non Jewish) fans on one hand. He is more polarizing than Sarah Palin.

I don't like people reveling about racial IQ differences either (or even IQ differences within a single race), but the reason that gets the most attention is pretty obvious. It's the 800lb elephant in the room nobody can discuss and others can't see. Worse yet, false assumptions drive so much of public policy. Ultimately, I think, the most civil bloggers with policed comments will rise to the top but HBD as a brand will need more than that to be respected and influence policy.

[John]

Fred's point is correct from a PR standpoint, but opponents of HBD are just as guilty as letting their political views inform what they talk about as proponents of HBD. For every HBDer who "revels" in human differences, there are several who "revel" in the ways in which people are alike. Is one really better than the other?

In the end, it won't matter whether or not HBD is offensive. It will only matter whether it is true. The public will come around, just as they came around to the Sun-centered solar system, and are slowly coming around to evolution.

BTW, wouldn't any simple white racist put his own race at the top? It is an odd sort of racist who says, "Yeah, we're pretty smart, but not as smart as those Asians and Jews."

[AshAndMistyInLove]

"But we can't really go back and change the name. It's already entrenched. The fact that you believe anyone has even implied that "HBD" is an unbiased examination of scientific evidence shows you either don't read any of the blogs or you enjoy attributing statements to people that have never made them."

Fine, I guess the distinction of HBD is a solecism much like "intelligence quotient" that is simply a fixed historical vestige. Of course, many HBD bloggers like to contrast themselves the soi-dissant "liberal creationists" who are subordinate to multiculturalism, "social justice" or some other quixotic left-wing fad while presenting themselves as disinterested objective observers of scientific evidence.

[jef]

The problem is "the gap". White racism and HBD are competing explanations.

[Crockett]

Hitler deserves blame, certainly. But there's more to it than that. One of the most highly charged words in the English language is "racist". These days people are deathly afraid of being accused as such, even for the most absurd, flimsiest, laughable reasons. And these days a Democrat's favorite tactic is to categorize anyone who doesn't toe the line as a racist, knowing from experience that this is the most effective way to shut down the debate.

I advocate fighting fire with fire. The next time a Democrat accuses you of being racist, hit him with a pop quiz:

1. There is currently a senior United States Senator who was an Exalted Cyclops of the KKK and who recently used the "n-word" on national television. He also filibustered the Civil Rights act of 1964. Who is he and what party does he belong to?

2. Which party did the president belong to who signed the Emancipation Proclamation?

The answers are sure to cause a severe case of cognitive dissonance in your opponent. He'll be reduced to blind invective, ad hominem attacks, cussing, etc. You might even see his head spinning Linda Blair style. Great fun.

[Matt]

I think people would have less confidence in an apologetic "This is true but oh so sad" approach or being emotionally downbeat about the whole thing generally. There's a degree to which you have to have confidence and relatively positive emotions about what you are saying to convince people of anything and so, if you are saying something, you'll be like that. I think this can seem to some people like being really happy about the whole thing and I'm not really sure that's avoidable.

I do think a lot of HBD blogs do tend to flog a dead horse to some extent in a way that looks like revelling in their subject, but that's an unfortunate consequence of having a sharp and quite stipulated focus and writing something for which people expect weekly or daily updates, particularly one that's very contentious and where you are trying to persuade people to think in an unorthodox manner. Even Steve who tends to branch out and have a lot more diverse stuff to say than someone like OneSTDV (who is pretty repetitive and anodyne a lot of the time) tends to overrun a lot of the same material.

I think this whole thing, whereby people tend to view HBD blogs as motivated by hate rather than an attempt to understand things, it's also more problematic with the HBD bloggers who tend to be relatively data light (unfortunately including yourself Sigma), which not only makes them more readable for the dumber commentators driven by animosity but also tends to mean that it's easier to view them as really having no basis for their conclusions and also for them to make speculations which don't have any reality behind them. Contrast the Inductivist (or Razib Khan, if I can include him) with OneSTDV or Obsidian. Can you get a sharper contrast between someone who is actually interested in the world and interested in disproving a flawed consensus and someone who is just interested in signaling, self serving ingroup bias, schizophrenic unfalsifiable second guessing of motivations and animosity (specifically Obsidian to the largest extent)?

[Reginald]

Fred's comment was convincingly debunked by Svigor:

"Blame Stalin. Anti-racism, radical equalitarianism, and race-denial were accepted by the mainstream in the 20th century. Then Stalin came along and killed the brand.

Oh, wait…

Fred, this doesn’t withstand scrutiny. Hitler’s tree was heard ’round the world, and Stalin’s tree didn’t make a sound, even though the latter was more than three times as big as the former."

[tehag]

"And fuck Hitler. (Not just for this, of course...)"

Dude, even Jesse James Bullock had better taste in f*k buddies.

Okay, I'm trying to be funny. Sorry.

[RandyB]

This is a pretty fundamental issue that HBD sympathizers need to deal with. Black conservative professor Carol Swain says that the growth of ethno-nationalists organizations like Stormfront (highly extreme) and Amren (more mainstream) is primarily due to the exclusion of reasoned discussion of ethnicity problems and differences in mainstream media, academia and politics, which are supposed to be open arenas of discourse. WN/HBD organizations become the only home where any such discussion is possible.

As such, there are probably two distinct "camps" with HBD:
1) the one that agrees with Sam Francis that Western culture is only possible with a population possessing predominantly white genetics;
2) the one that would like to have better race relations, but doesn't believe there's an environment within which to practice it honestly

[Richard Hoste www.hbdbooks.com]

Fred's comment reflects an extremely naive way of viewing the world.

http://hbdbooks.com/2010/04/im-with-svigor/

The mistake is believing that reality causes people to adopt an ideology, when actually ideology creates our view of reality.

[JewishAtheist]

If you got rid of those who revel in the differences, you and Steve would lose 99% of your fanboys. I wonder if that occurs to you sometimes in the middle of the night and you sit up in horror.

[J. L.]

"First part of comment: Dead on. It's a shame that knowledge of group differences got stigmatized.

Second part: Trite ad hominem."
-----------
First, I fully agree with the entirety of OneSTDV's comment at 6:16, above.

Further, I think that for the reality of HBD to again be considered, there need to be a series of breakthroughs. I think the first set of breakthroughs have come through such books as "The Bell Curve" by Charles Murray, and "Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It." Due to these, there is at least some willingness to talk about HBD, although still it is a marginalized concept.

Perhaps the next breakthrough needs to come in the form of some work of popular media that probes the issue, maybe in a cursory sort of way. Such a work would break open Pandora's box on the issue, and break the silence. A movie would be great, but with Hollywood's left leaning ideology, this is doubtful. Perhaps it would be more in the form of a sci-fi novel or something like that. A sci-fi novel would seem like a possibility, given that: (1) some sci-fi writers are libertarian or at least not leftist in their viewpoints;(2) because sci-fi novels are able to probe interesting "real" issues through the metaphor of an "alternate reality"; and (3)because the idea of alien "races" with very different traits is already a common feature of the sci-fi genre.

In the meantime, the idea of HBD may have to hide behind the more benign-sounding notion of "individual differences." For example, in the case of the New Haven firefighters, the argument againt racial preferences was couched in terms of individual differences. (The fact that individuals are divided into racial and ethnic groups with measurable traits remained an unspoken notion, notwithstanding being self evident to anyone intellectually honest.)

Its important to remember that, in addition to Hitler, there was also a long-term effort to break down racial barriers in the U.S., and to impose a taboo on the mention of HBD. In some respects, the effects of this struggle were positive, as it ended certain inhuman policies (such as those Senator Exalted Cyclops Robert Byrd may be familiar with). But unfortunately, the intense zeal to "get beyond" race has also created the present self-imposed silence in discussing the reality of racial differnces. This should not be: HBD can be discussed respectfully, and without use of racial epithets.
With time, that can be shown.

[Turambar]

I think a similar observation was made on this blog 4 years ago- even if you took Hitler out of the equation the kind of people that are HBD fanboys are the types that clinging to a test score for self-worth and really dont have a lot more going on.

Add to that the fact that all the HBD-disadvantaged groups now have advocacy groups and tear-jerking media on their side.

You can take Hitler out of the picture and you'd end up right back here.

[Sheila Tone]

Accepting HBD means more than just group differences. It means accepting that intelligence is measurable and largely genetic. Most white people won't like this either because they aren't that smart themselves, or if they are, they prefer to think it's because of their hard work and good characters. Attacking something as racist packs more of a punch than attacking it as elitist.

[Fiddlesticks]

Credit where credit is due...Mack Daddy Brimelow made a similar-enough point 15 years ago, in "Alien Nation."

http://vdare.com/pb/060822_immigration.htm

[notju a ginn]

This is a question most HBDers sidestep, and a question a few anti-HBD posters have made: If HBD is accepted into the mainstream, it is accepted that blacks and hispanics are sub-par then what?
Are you looking forward to a society with outcasts?
This may come as a shock to you, but that really bugs black and brown people.

[J. L.]

"This is a question most HBDers sidestep, and a question a few anti-HBD posters have made: If HBD is accepted into the mainstream, it is accepted that blacks and hispanics are sub-par then what?
Are you looking forward to a society with outcasts?
This may come as a shock to you, but that really bugs black and brown people."

I would suggest that the answer largely lies in support for principled, meritocratic individualism (with "merit" meaning all values accross the board which would be applicable to a particular task... IQ, personality traits, leadership ability, logical reasoning, physical strength, etc. . . . each task or job thus requiring different abilities and skill sets).

HBD is actually more complicated than saying "blacks and hispanics are sub-par." HBD generally deals with averages and tendencies among racial and ethnic groups. HBD generally posits that there are general tendencies that are recognizable and quantifiable among racial groups, not that every individual among a racial group conforms to those tendencies. Therefore, there are persons in each racial or ethnic group that fall all along the IQ "bell curve," and who have any number of different personality and physical traits. To focus on individual merit allows those individuals of any race who meet certain standards (of a task or job) to attain that status, while at the same time allowing for acceptance that there will be certain racial groups that will be more prominent in certain areas of human endeavor (i.e., computer programming, basketball, the medical profession, landscapers, airline pilots, artists, etc.).

Of course, there will always be controversy, but I think individual merit is something capable of being easily defended. ("Of course X was accepted as firefighter, while Y was not. X passed the test, and Y did not. X showed the requisite skills and Y did not." Most people [maybe not all, but most] will recognize that if they ever need a firefighter [or someone to fix their computer, or perform surgery on them], they would want someone who can do the job well, not someone who fits a certain category.)

Also, I want to again note that "hispanic" is not a racial category. "Hispanic" is a conglomeration of people who are sometimes white, black, Native America, or a mixture of any or all of the above... or other categories as well. It is a very cumbersome term that has little use for HBD purposes.

[RandyB]

"If HBD is accepted into the mainstream, it is accepted that blacks and hispanics are sub-par then what?"

What the alternative if we don't discuss it? In 2110, will Rev. Al Sharpton the Fifth be complaining, "Whites practiced slavery for 200 years, segregation for another 100, and must have been secretly undermining apparently well-intentioned social policies without even being willing to talk about them for an additional 150."

[OneSTDV]

This is a question most HBDers sidestep, and a question a few anti-HBD posters have made: If HBD is accepted into the mainstream, it is accepted that blacks and hispanics are sub-par then what?
Are you looking forward to a society with outcasts?
This may come as a shock to you, but that really bugs black and brown people.

Isn't liberal creationism even more stigmatizing? In the HBD world, NAM underachivement is simply the result of nature. In the liberal creationist paradigm, it's all their fault. In anti-HBD world (the ones who don't blame whites for everything), NAMs fail on their own accord, due to their own values, laziness, lack of good parenting, bad neighborhoods, etc.

It paints them as personal failures instead of simply incapable naturally. No one faults midgets for not being good at basketball.

[OneSTDV]

the kind of people that are HBD fanboys are the types that clinging to a test score for self-worth and really dont have a lot more going on.

More ad hominems. I've never once seen a commenter on an HBD site brag about his test scores.

The reason why HBDers focus on test scores is not some ploy to substantiate themselves, but rather because test scores are a great measure of intelligence, which is kind of central to HBD, and real world activity (see military studies).

And if your assertion was actually correct (that it's all about high test scores and non-practical credentials), then HBDers wouldn't denigrate the Ivory Tower so much. Yet, on many HBD sites and especially in Charles Murray's works, vo-tech and the practical educational path are celebrated, while useless liberal arts degrees are ridiculed.

[Melykin]

"They don't just point out group differences, they revel in them. They like it too much. It's unseemly, and it turns people off."
------------------------------------

I got interested in HBD after noticing that some races are more prone to alcoholism than others. I'm not particularly interested in the IQ aspect of it, and I certainly don't revel in group difference, since they generally seem to push society in a dysfunctional direction and end up hurting everyone.

I would hope that by studying the genetics of alcoholism that we will learn more about it and that this might lead to effective treatments. I certainly do not take any glee in the fact that, for example, most Indian Reserves in Canada are dysfunctional sh*# holes due to most people being drunk most of the time. I think it is a human tragedy. I am descended from people from Scotland and there is also alcoholism running in my family.

It seems clear that alcoholism is largely a genetic disease, and I am really tired of all the politically correct bulls#*! we hear in Canada about alcoholism being caused by Indian Residential Schools and colonialism, because none of it is based on science at all. It would make as much sense to say alcoholism is caused by evil spirits or voodoo for all the good it does to say it is caused by colonialism. Yet we have the government spending a lot of money on this useless bull$h_T.

A substantial portion of the population is suffering from a horrible disease, and we are not applying science to study the disease because everyone is afraid to suggest that one race is more genetically prone to the disease than another. People are suffering and dying because of the stifling effects of political correctness. This really make me angry.

I read HBD blogs because it is the only place I can talk about HBD without being shunned as a Nazi. It is the only place where people are willing to acknowledge what science tells us about HBD. It is alarming that the elite powers that be either ignore the science or actively suppress it.

[Fiddlesticks]

@notju a ginn:

Your point was anticipated and addressed long ago in an obscure tract called "The Bell Curve." Pick it up sometime. Acceptance of HBD means af-ac is unsustainable because the qualified pool of NAM applicants will fail to satisfy the four-fifths rule.

Scaling back af-ac's distortions doesn't mean anyone becomes an "outcast."

HBDers prefer colorblind promotions and an immigration policy that promotes good wages for less-credentialed jobs.

Portland-enclaving SWPLs and loophole-lobbying value-transferrers are the ones creating a class of "outcasts" by advocating mass expansion of the unskilled labor pool.

[AshleyZ]

Damn Hitler. He also made it politically incorrect to criticize modern art, and dismantled the idea of national pride, glory, and appreciation of human history.

You can blame Stalin for spoiling the idea of monument-building.

[Gamma Man]

Hitler was a vegetarian, teetotaller, animal-lover and ecologist as well. Why don't people associate those popular trends to him? My contention is that eugenics became taboo much later, well in the late seventies; so did racialism. So, the problem would seem to lie with liberalism.

[HS: Hitler didn't send people to the gas chambers for eating meat.]

[Fred]

"Fred's comment was convincingly debunked by Svigor:"

Readers can see my responses to Svigor on Sailer's site and judge for themselves, but Svigor represents another problem with HBD (the one Truth brought up in that comment thread): once you start sorting the "good" ethnic groups from the others, you run into disagreements about who belongs in the favored group. Svigor doesn't just have a problem with NAMs, but with Jews and Asians as well. Some other HBDers go further, and would exclude people of southern European ancestry as well.

"I advocate fighting fire with fire. The next time a Democrat accuses you of being racist, hit him with a pop quiz:"

Dumb idea, for a reason that's related to the problem with HBD. Yes, Robert Byrd is a Democrat who was in the KKK. But almost all the segregationist Southern Democrats switched to the GOP after Civil Rights passed. An educated Democrat would know that. Just like Hitler killed the brand for HBD, those Southern segregationists (and Nixon's Southern Strategy to woo them) killed the GOP's emancipation brand.

"The problem is "the gap". White racism and HBD are competing explanations."

You're getting warmer, but the gap itself isn't the problem; the problem is policies designed to close the gap, or make up for it.

The solution is to stop highlighting racial differences as a matter of policy, which is the opposite of what HBD does. Think of Ward Connolly's ballot initiatives against Affirmative Action. Blogging about HBD doesn't help that cause, even though HBDers want the same end result.

Same is true with social policy in general: they way to get the policies HBDers want enacted is to downplay racial differences, not revel in them. Let's say you support cash payments for temporarily sterilization of welfare mothers, for example, as I do. You know this is going to disproportionately impact NAM women. So does everyone else. So what do you do when an opponent points this out? You could be a typical HBDer, and explain that this disproportionately affects NAMs because they have lower IQs on average. And that will stop the policy dead in its tracks. Or you can take the smart approach, and point out that most welfare recipients are poor whites, and that this policy would apply to them too, so it's not about race.

And, really, it doesn't have to be. You can find every NAM dysfunction in whites. You don't see this so much where Half Sigma lives, because NAMs are at the bottom of the status/income totem pole in New York (as they are in most big cities). But you'll see this in other parts of the country, without many NAMs: blond welfare mothers with their kids at McDonald's, etc. There's always someone at the bottom of the totem pole.

So, bottom line: you can push for policies that will limit NAM dysfunction in a race-neutral way and you can have some success. Or you can harp on about HBD and have no success, but enjoy the commiseration.

[tommy]

The belief in the existence of racial differences was probably declining before Hitler. Blame Boas and his ilk.

[AshAndMistyInLove]

"Hitler was a vegetarian, teetotaller, animal-lover and ecologist as well. Why don't people associate those popular trends to him? My contention is that eugenics became taboo much later, well in the late seventies; so did racialism. So, the problem would seem to lie with liberalism."

He also had anti-smoking laws :)

[not too late]

I read HBD blogs because it is the only place I can talk about HBD without being shunned as a Nazi. It is the only place where people are willing to acknowledge what science tells us about HBD. It is alarming that the elite powers that be either ignore the science or actively suppress it.

Posted by: Melykin | April 02, 2010 at 02:27 PM

I agree. People can be so dopey. I think it will be great when we can help people make better more informed decisions based on science, genetics and heritability. Right now, natural selection is not working as it had in the past. This is uncharted territory. What will be the effect of so few people dying from carrying certain traits and those proliferating? Dunno. Maybe it will be just fine, but I think we need to investigate it because birth control and vaccination, etc. have really changed the direction we are going. It would be a real shame to be blindsided by some unforeseen unintended consequence.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"As such, there are probably two distinct "camps" with HBD:
1) the one that agrees with Sam Francis that Western culture is only possible with a population possessing predominantly white genetics;
2) the one that would like to have better race relations, but doesn't believe there's an environment within which to practice it honestly"

Francis was a White Nationalist, not an HBDer.

HBDers (per the GNXP demographic survey Razib posted a year ago) are, mostly, white, college educated, under 35, ex-libertarians who live in middle and upper middle class areas.

The WNs are, well, they are correct that races have different hardwired abilities, and that's basically all you can say in their favor.

Anyway, young libertarians who have heard of HBD are attracted to it because its a place on the net where you can express non-PC opinions without dealing with the WNs and all of their myriad self-inflicted PR problems.

Sigma, you need to put up a post explaining that HBDers (as a demographic) are not WNs.

[Derek]

"While we are on the subject of bad marketing decisions is it true that Richard Spencer of Alternative Right is a practicing Odinist/Thorist/Nordic-Paganist?

If he is, may I ask why Spencer doesn't want to revive the worship of the Hellenic deities such as Orpheus and Hyperion?

Are the Greek gods not blond enough for him?"

Is Richard Spencer not philo-Semitic enough for you?

[Kiwiguy]

***I advocate fighting fire with fire. The next time a Democrat accuses you of being racist***

I find it more useful if discussing HBD to frame it as a question of whether or not you are a Christian creationist. If you accept evolution, then HBD is a logical implication of that. Most SWPL's find creationism absurd so get quite defensive.

David Friedman has an excellent post here about how it tends to be those on the left who deny the implications of evolution despite preaching it.

http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/2008/08/who-is-against-evolution.html

[RT]

Fred said:
"The solution is to stop highlighting racial differences as a matter of policy, which is the opposite of what HBD does. Think of Ward Connolly's ballot initiatives against Affirmative Action. Blogging about HBD doesn't help that cause, even though HBDers want the same end result."

Connerly's anti-AA ballot initiatives may be well intentioned, but in practice they fail miserably - Academia and governemnt bureaucrats are not on board with ending affirmative action and subvert the laws enacted by these referenda. In fact, the results are usually worse than before. Look what they did in Texas and other states when AA was banned - they enacted laws allowing the top few percent at every highschool college addmittance. The problem is that the most talented NAM kids generally live in neighborhoods that aren't predominately NAM and, consequently, end up not near the top of their predominately white and Asian schools. The top students from majority NAM schools are academically much worse than middle class NAMs, with the result being that the quality of NAM students at state universities is even lower and drop out rates even higher. A straight quota would be better. At least it would ensure that the most talented people from each group end up getting the university places or jobs.

[Fred]

"Connerly's anti-AA ballot initiatives may be well intentioned, but in practice they fail miserably"

That's an overstatement. They aren't perfect by themselves, but they have had positive effects in California and elsewhere.

"Academia and governemnt bureaucrats are not on board with ending affirmative action and subvert the laws enacted by these referenda."

The referenda are only part of the solution. The bureaucracy needs to be changed as well. Again, the more promising approach is the race neutral one, not the racialist one. Advocate for a return of civil service tests and more meritocratic hiring, ostensibly to promote good government. Advocate for political diversity within the educational bureaucracies, which will also reduce the percentage of liberals there.

There isn't one silver bullet, but you have better odds of improving things incrementally with an approach that doesn't emphasize inherent racial differences.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Is Richard Spencer not philo-Semitic enough for you?"

I hope that he IS (A) an anti-Semite and (B) A Neo-Nordic Paganist because being a Pagan revivalist confirms every stereotype of White Nationalism.

If the WNs are too stupid to understand Odin-Worship (for real!) gives their side enormously bad PR then they have nobody to blame for their marginalization but themselves.

So, answer my original question:

While we are on the subject of bad marketing decisions is it true that Richard Spencer of Alternative Right is a practicing Odinist/Thorist/Nordic-Paganist?

If he is, may I ask why Spencer doesn't want to revive the worship of the Hellenic deities such as Orpheus and Hyperion?

Are the Greek gods not blond enough for him?

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"The belief in the existence of racial differences was probably declining before Hitler. Blame Boas and his ilk."

Boas didn't say there were no racial differences in terms of mental ability.

In "In Search of Human Nature" the author points out that Boas was not "an extreme anti-hereditarian" and that the most Blank Slatist (in terms of saying intelligence can be increased via social intervention) segment of the scientific community in the 1920s and 1930s was the behaviorist school of psychology of Dr John B Watson (a non-Jew).

Boas did believe blacks had lower average intelligence levels because, per Boas, they had smaller cranial volume than whites and therefore, again per Boas, black Americans cannot produce as many men of "high genius" as whites.

Boas' argument was that there was enough of an overlap in terms of intelligence for blacks to rise to the middle class if discrimination were eliminated and blacks were treated as individuals.

In other words, his ideas were similar to Charles Murray.

The social scientists who initially followed Boas didn't believe black Americans could equal whites, but still wanted blacks to be "the best black persons they could be".

Cultural anthropology did become blank slatist but only after WWII when Boas' ideas were taken way beyond what Boas originally intended.

So Hitler was the cause of the loss in belief in hereditarianism not Boas.

I also want to point out that Boas was not trying to undermine Western Civilization with his ideas because actually argued that European civilization had achieved the highest level of advancement.

Also, in the case of blacks Boas wanted black Americans to assimilate (as much as possible) into Anglo-American culture.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Readers can see my responses to Svigor on Sailer's site and judge for themselves, but Svigor represents another problem with HBD"

Svigor is not an HBDer, he's a White Nationalist.

Please stop confusing WN with HBD because it gives HBD bad PR.

"Some other HBDers go further, and would exclude people of southern European ancestry as well."

The people who say Italians should not be allowed to marry "Nordics" are not HBDers, they are WNs or NeoNazis.

Please stop confusing WN with HBD (especially the Nordic-WN crackpot contingent that claims Southern Europeans are not white) because it gives HBD bad PR.

[Linda]

"Please stop confusing WN with HBD (especially the Nordic-WN crackpot contingent that claims Southern Europeans are not white) because it gives HBD bad PR."

Actually Richard Lynn does not consider Southern Europeans to be white & he's the leading authority on HBD. It sounds like you're more concerned with maintaining your membership in a high status racial group than in advancing the scientific debate. You are not worried about HBD getting bad PR (as if it could get any worse), you are worried about being excluded from high status social group. :-)

[NotImpressed]

Fred and Undiscovered Jew make an important point, on how the "alt-right" apparently is unable (or unwilling) to see itself as others do, but instead enjoy mutual ego-scratching and lamenting the public's failure to latch onto their ideas.

Alt-Right Mag (if their intent is rightish coalition building, or bringing new people over to their ideas) is a great example of this blindness (see Odinism, Richard Hoste, many HBD nerd-boy blogs, "localized manliness" and dudes who pretend to be "alpha" on the Internet, The Spearhead, nuthuggery towards Islam etc.)

No Undiscovered Jew, the Greek Gods are a bit on the swarthy side, and as the HBD-sphere informs us, some are created more Nordic than others.

P.S. HalfSigma, you yourself could help give a better impression of the alt-right, if you'd drop the insecurities about your intellecual performance (calculus, chess etc) and earning potential ("value transfer" = those who make more money than you are likely to)

[Reginald]

"Svigor is not an HBDer, he's a White Nationalist."

Actually, he is both at the same time.

Of course you can be a HBDer and still be Anti-White, in the same way that you can believe smoking gives you cancer and still be a smoker.

But still there's a strong correlation between being a HBDer and being a White Nationalist.

It's kind of like: If Race is real and matters, why shouldn't we try to preserve our Race?

[Fred]

Dismissing Svigor because he is a "white nationalist" is like dismissing HBD because you are a "racist". It's a label designed to stifle debate. HBD and white nationalism really aren't that different, which is why I group them together. Most outside observers probably would as well.

Just as blank slaters would deny any material, inherent differences between blacks and whites, you would deny any such differences between North Western Europeans and Southern Europeans. In fact, there are observable differences.

[tommy]

I recommend the "Scientist as Activist" section of the "Franz Boas" Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas#Scientist_as_activist

In addition, Ashley Montagu was providing his expert opinion on race as early as the mid-20s:

http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/ashley.html

[Legend of Bungo]

Fred has nailed it on the head.

HBDers do themselves a terrible disfavor with their triumphalism and smugness about areas in which whites, Jews and Asians do well.

Also, they tread on dangerous territory when they get out of the areas in which there is some empirical evidence for dysgenic HBD - i.e., low psychometrics for certain groups. Fine, perhaps we won't have as many NAM astrophysicists, but when you make the jump into declaring that Africa will always live in darkness because the higher testosterone levels of blacks make them more prone to aggression and violence, you are making a really fantastical leap of inference.

It's the unwillingness to concede that SOME aspects of NAM failures are not entirely attributable to HBD that's keeping the HBD a bit too close to the Stormfront crowd to make it palatable to the mainstream.

[Derek]

"I hope that he IS (A) an anti-Semite and (B) A Neo-Nordic Paganist because being a Pagan revivalist confirms every stereotype of White Nationalism.

If the WNs are too stupid to understand Odin-Worship (for real!) gives their side enormously bad PR then they have nobody to blame for their marginalization but themselves.

So, answer my original question:

While we are on the subject of bad marketing decisions is it true that Richard Spencer of Alternative Right is a practicing Odinist/Thorist/Nordic-Paganist?

If he is, may I ask why Spencer doesn't want to revive the worship of the Hellenic deities such as Orpheus and Hyperion?"

Wouldn't reviving the worship of the Hellenic deities be enormously bad PR, what with the association with ancient Greek man-on-man butt love and all?

Also, I don't believe Spencer has any Greek heritage, so I don't know why he would choose ancestral deities that weren't really worshiped by his ancestors. Maybe Taki would.

[Derek]

"The people who say Italians should not be allowed to marry "Nordics" are not HBDers, they are WNs or NeoNazis.

Please stop confusing WN with HBD (especially the Nordic-WN crackpot contingent that claims Southern Europeans are not white) because it gives HBD bad PR."

HBDers and WN/NeoNazis aren't mutually exclusive. They do overlap.

All of the "Nordic-WN crackpot contingent" doesn't necessarily claim that S. Euros aren't white. They just say that they're different sub-groups within a larger group or race, and that they wish to maintain their differences and preserve their own sub-group.

[Fred]

" It sounds like you're more concerned with maintaining your membership in a high status racial group than in advancing the scientific debate. You are not worried about HBD getting bad PR (as if it could get any worse), you are worried about being excluded from high status social group. :-)"

Linda hits the bull's eye.

"No Undiscovered Jew, the Greek Gods are a bit on the swarthy side, and as the HBD-sphere informs us, some are created more Nordic than others."

The Greeks presumably saw their gods in their own image. Greeks back then may have been less swarthy. Greece today has a history of Turkish occupation. Ancient Greece didn't.

[AshAndMistyInLove]

"Focus on all the ways blacks are genetically superior to whites. Larger genitals, more muscle mass, denser bones, more speed, more reach, jump higher, run faster, look younger as they age, more rhythm, etc."

And ignore all the negative such as African subhuman intelligence.

[hellothere]

"Focus on all the ways blacks are genetically superior to whites. Larger genitals, more muscle mass, denser bones, more speed, more reach, jump higher, run faster, look younger as they age, more rhythm, etc."

Much of that is unsubstantiated. More fast twitch muscle is one that is perhaps substantiated among a subgroup of Africans but other than, no

[Kiwiguy]

***But still there's a strong correlation between being a HBDer and being a White Nationalist.

It's kind of like: If Race is real and matters, why shouldn't we try to preserve our Race?

Posted by: Reginald | April 03, 2010 at 02:18 PM ***

The Dalai Lama falls into that category. He believes race matters and wants to preserve his one.

[Twain]

"And these days a Democrat's favorite tactic is to categorize anyone who doesn't toe the line as a racist, knowing from experience that this is the most effective way to shut down the debate."

Even the Republicans will use the term racist now. I heard Sen. Lindsey Graham use it when he called the people against immigration racist.
What if I believed that all black people are equal to whites in terms of intelligence, but I just didn't want to live with them or in their culture? Is that a racist? Look at all the rich people who are so concerned about racism and integration, but they live in their rich suburbs while they tell everyone else to integrate.They get to have their cake an eat it too.

If WN nordics don't want to marry Italians, they should be able to set up their own society and discriminate against Italians. I'll move to Italy with the Italians as long as they keep non Europeans out of Italy.I would let nordic people into Italy though because I like them. The nordics in the US should be able to move to Norway, Sweden and fit right in. They should keep out the Aricans and Muslims. Countries like Ireland should have asked people of Irish descent to move back there instead of importing Africans. The same goes of Italy.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Dismissing Svigor because he is a "white nationalist" is like dismissing HBD because you are a "racist". It's a label designed to stifle debate."

Uh, what the heck are you talking about?

The term "White Nationalist" is what the WNs (for the most part) CHOSE to call themselves. The term isn't meant to stifle debate, its what the WNs identify as politically.

"Just as blank slaters would deny any material, inherent differences between blacks and whites, you would deny any such differences between North Western Europeans and Southern Europeans."

I didn't say there are no differences between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. I'm sure that Southern Europeans are hardwired to be more extroverted than Northern Europeans.

I said both groups are white.

"Greeks back then may have been less swarthy."

No they aren't. The Greeks of today are physically exactly the same as they were in Ancient Times (even Carleton Coon agreed modern Greeks are physically identical to the Ancient Greeks). Nor did the Ancient Greeks envision their gods as looking like Northern Europeans.

Dienekes at his Anthropology blog has a well sourced article at his blog proving the Greeks of today are physically the same as they were 2000 years ago.

"Greece today has a history of Turkish occupation."

Actually, the Greeks are similar to Turks because the Greeks had a history of invading Asia Minor (ie Alexander of Macedon) and because the Turks of Turkey are genetically the same as they were prior to the Arab-Byzantine wars.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Also, I don't believe Spencer has any Greek heritage, so I don't know why he would choose ancestral deities that weren't really worshiped by his ancestors."

An absolutely brilliant comment.

Why would anyone in their right mind worship a god their racial ancestors didn't worship.

It's a crazy idea.

It would be like Filipinos worshiping some Jewish guy who claimed 2000 years ago to be the Son of Godo.

Yes, worshiping a god your racial ancestors did not is totally out of the mainstream of human behavior.

"All of the "Nordic-WN crackpot contingent" doesn't necessarily claim that S. Euros aren't white. They just say that they're different sub-groups within a larger group or race, and that they wish to maintain their differences and preserve their own sub-group."

If Southern Europeans are white, why is preserving the sub-group so important that the WNs want either ban or strongly discourage "miscegenation" between Italians and Scandinavians?

There are subgroups within Northern Europeans, that doesn't mean Irish and Norwegians should be banned from marrying (Right? Right?).

In fact, if the WNs are correct that you should only marry people who are genetically most similar to you, doesn't their own logic of Ethnic Genetic Interests lead to the promotion of inbreeding? After all, what woman is genetically closer to you than your own sister?

Btw, you still haven't answered my question:

Is Richard Spencer an Odin-Worshiper?

Yes or No...

[dk]

"They don't just point out group differences, they revel in them. They like it too much. It's unseemly, and it turns people off."

"And ignore all the negative such as African subhuman intelligence."

Trolling much, Ash?

I completely agree with the first part. Some people seek a group identity by uniting with others against the varelse. NAM's will do for their purposes.

I think this is particularly prevalent in the writings of younger HBDers. The need for group affirmation diminishes as people age.

And it hurts the recognition of real world facts which would benefit both blacks and whites.

[Richard Hoste www.hbdbooks.com]

Undiscovered Jew, for the millionth time "Is Richard Spencer an Odin-Worshiper?"

E-mail him and ask him already!

You people are funny. HBD loses because WNs give it a bad name? You mean the way the civil rights movement was discredited among smart people because of the black panthers? Or the gay movement was discredited by flaming perverts sodomizing each other on San Francisco streets? Or the way way feminism is discredited by women's studies professors who talk of castrating men?

What? You mean that feminism, gay rights and civil rights still have widespread support among the elites despite the perverts and weirdos? Are white nationalists just such bad people that they are unique in discrediting anything they believe in?

Repeat after me: Reality has little to nothing to do with perceptions. Maybe reality is responsible for 10% of how we see the world, but not much more.

[AshAndMistyInLove]

Yes, I am trolling. :) When I troll, the readability of my comments rises and their grade level drops along with a concomitant increase in grammatical errors. Also I prefer the feminine "Misty" (or "Aki") when being referred to here.

I do like that phrase (African subhuman intelligence [originally coined by abiola lapite]) since it accurately describes what everyone thinks about HBD especially the SPWL liberals since most of them believe that black's intellectual inferiority is primarily genetic, but they are still in the closet. As Charles Murray stated:

The topic of race and genes is like the topic of sex in Victorian England. The intellectual elites are horrified if anyone talks about it, but behind the scenes they are fascinated. I will say it more baldly than Dick and I did in the book: In their heart of hearts, intellectual elites, especially liberal ones, have two nasty secrets regarding IQ. First, they really believe that IQ is the be-all and end-all of human excellence and that someone with a low IQ is inferior. Second, they are already sure that the black - white IQ difference is predominantly genetic and that this is a calamity -- such a calamity indeed that it must not be spoken about, even to oneself. To raise these issues holds a mirror up to the elites' most desperately denied inner thoughts. The result is the kind of reaction we saw to Lino Graglia.

http://www.europeanamericansunited.org/school1/Eugenics/Murray/mssel.html

[Fred]

"Actually, the Greeks are similar to Turks because the Greeks had a history of invading Asia Minor (ie Alexander of Macedon) and because the Turks of Turkey are genetically the same as they were prior to the Arab-Byzantine wars."

Alexander the Great's army was estimated to be about 40k strong. It's doubtful he changed the gene pool much in what is now Turkey. It's more likely the Turks changed the Greek gene pool during their centuries-long occupation of it.

Also, Alexander was blond, so regardless of what the average Greek looked like 2000 years ago, it wouldn't be a surprise if they imagined their gods to be fairer than the average Greek, any more than it should be surprising that the stars of Mexican soap operas are more European looking than the average Mexican.

[NotImpressed]

Undiscovered, I was kind of suprised by Fred's response at my obviously tongue-in-cheek snark:

---------
"No Undiscovered Jew, the Greek Gods are a bit on the swarthy side, and as the HBD-sphere informs us, some are created more Nordic than others."

The Greeks presumably saw their gods in their own image. Greeks back then may have been less swarthy. Greece today has a history of Turkish occupation. Ancient Greece didn't.
------------

Apparently, even those who understand the concept of marketing are not always entirely self-aware.

[Linda]

"I didn't say there are no differences between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans. I'm sure that Southern Europeans are hardwired to be more extroverted than Northern Europeans.

I said both groups are white."

Both groups are caucasoid. But Nordics are whites, while Southern Europeans, Ashkenazi, Arabs, North Africans and South Asians are non-white caucasoids. So yes, you are the same SUB-SPECIES as whites in that you are a caucasoid, but you are not the same RACE as whites. Similarly, the negroid supspecies can be subdivided into the congoid race (East/West Africans) and the capoid race (Bushmen).

[RT]

Fred said:
"The referenda are only part of the solution. The bureaucracy needs to be changed as well. Again, the more promising approach is the race neutral one, not the racialist one. Advocate for a return of civil service tests and more meritocratic hiring, ostensibly to promote good government. Advocate for political diversity within the educational bureaucracies, which will also reduce the percentage of liberals there."

You can't really believe this stuff? As America becomes more diverse, there is no way poorly achieving ethnic groups (NAMs) will not fight tooth and nail to retain race based allocation of societies spoils through government action. At best, all white Americans can hope to do to avoid getting crushed under the racial activist bus is to resort to the same grubby and unseamly ethnic activist tactics that other ethnic groups resort to to demand their 'fair share'. Naturally this will lead to much conflict and acrimonious relations between whites and non-whites (including high performing Asians also looking for government set-asides). Another big potential point of conflict is how to divvy up government/government mandated benefits among whites - Jews and old-line elite protestant groups (Episcopalians, Quakers, Unitarians, etc.) perform much better and also benefit from better social connections on average and take the lions share of plum spots designated for whites (see Ron Unz's 1998 article about Harvard admissions in the Wall Street Journal), leaving ethnic Catholics and Evangelical Protestants increasingly marginalized and forced to bear the brunt of wealthy Jewish and elite Protestant liberals' social engineering schemes, while these groups escape to their gated communities. It's a wonderful future we have ahead of us, isn't it?

[Derek]

"An absolutely brilliant comment.

Why would anyone in their right mind worship a god their racial ancestors didn't worship.

It's a crazy idea.

It would be like Filipinos worshiping some Jewish guy who claimed 2000 years ago to be the Son of Godo.

Yes, worshiping a god your racial ancestors did not is totally out of the mainstream of human behavior."

Never said anything about what is or isn't out of the mainstream of human behavior. We're talking about paganism, which is basically a blood, kinship based tribal religion.

[Derek]

"If Southern Europeans are white, why is preserving the sub-group so important that the WNs want either ban or strongly discourage "miscegenation" between Italians and Scandinavians?"

Why not? You could ask this question for any level of selection.

"There are subgroups within Northern Europeans, that doesn't mean Irish and Norwegians should be banned from marrying (Right? Right?)."

Why not? If sub-groups within N. Euros wish to maintain their distinctiveness amongst other N. Euro sub-groups, they should. They already have been doing so for hundreds of years informally through culture, language, political means (nations), etc. There would be nothing wrong with using formal means to maintain distinctiveness.

"In fact, if the WNs are correct that you should only marry people who are genetically most similar to you, doesn't their own logic of Ethnic Genetic Interests lead to the promotion of inbreeding? After all, what woman is genetically closer to you than your own sister?"

WNs don't necessarily say that you should only marry people who are genetically most similar to you.

Inbreeding with one's sister would not be a viable strategy due to the high probability of genetic defects showing up.

Sailer had a post on 3rd cousin marriages being the "Darwinian sweet spot":

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/02/darwinian-sweet-spot-3rd-cousin.html

[Matt]

"If Southern Europeans are white, why is preserving the sub-group so important that the WNs want either ban or strongly discourage "miscegenation" between Italians and Scandinavians?"

They care about a particular cultural and aesthetic ideal, rather than the welfare of all people who live within a delimited territory and have legally become citizens. Southern Europeans rarely meet or positively contribute to that ideal (in their estimation), and as such to increase the probability of people who fully meet that ideal they wish to segregate them out of that group. This has little to do with whether they group them in the class "White" or not, except that if they do so the term "White Nationalists" may be a misnomer depending on the extremity of their attitude to segregation.

Frankly, White Nationalists and "HBDers" should not, in my opinion, be treated as exclusive classes. A person can be designated a member of both or either independantly. White Nationalists tend to believe counterfactual facts about human biology and history which are untrue, but they may substantially otherwise share much in common with "HBDers", enough that it seems foolish to try and create schema in which they are exclusive classes (though creating foolish divides is a well worn pastime of White Nationalists).

"Actually, the Greeks are similar to Turks because the Greeks had a history of invading Asia Minor (ie Alexander of Macedon) and because the Turks of Turkey are genetically the same as they were prior to the Arab-Byzantine wars."

Greeks are similar to Turks on a world and European scale because of isolation by distance. Not because of any "invasions". Whatever Dienekes has posted is meaningless to Anatolian replacement unless he has tested it against historical Anatolian anthropometrics, which I doubt would be particularly dissimilar to Greek ones. It is impossible to know the pigmentation of Ancient Greeks without an genotyping ancient Greek remains.

[J. L.]

"Both groups are caucasoid. But Nordics are whites, while Southern Europeans, Ashkenazi, Arabs, North Africans and South Asians are non-white caucasoids. So yes, you are the same SUB-SPECIES as whites in that you are a caucasoid, but you are not the same RACE as whites. Similarly, the negroid supspecies can be subdivided into the congoid race (East/West Africans) and the capoid race (Bushmen)."
-----------
Hmmmm. Nordics are "white" and Southern Europeans, Ashkenazi Jews and Aravs are "nonwhite," but still caucasian???

Maybe, to be more specific, you can call the Nordics "peach colored", while calling the Southern Europeans, Ashkenazi, and Arabs "olive colored." Maybe red-haired Irish and Scots are really "rosy colored" and the Slavs are "dark-haired but kinda pale colored."

I guess I'm gently pointing out what sounds like just an arbitrary designation of race by shade of skin. I am not doubting there are different strains of the caucasoid race, and that Nordics, Ashkenazi Jews, Arabs, Slavs, Southern European Latins, and others, form distinct lines of said caucasoid race. But race, contrary to the liberal platitude, is actually more than skin deep. Its not like designating shades of housepaint. Is there any actual science behind this alleged white/nonwhite dichotomy within the Caucasoid race?

[obzerv]

As of right now the only people the mainstream is aware of whom implicitly acknowledge HBD are white supremacists. In a sense, this unfortunately gives white supremacists a monopoly on reality and only serves to strengthen their cause.

[The Undiscovered Jew]

"Frankly, White Nationalists and "HBDers" should not, in my opinion, be treated as exclusive classes. A person can be designated a member of both or either independantly."

Really?

I've never heard of an HBDer such as Half Sigma, Charles Murray, Steven Pinker, Moldbug, Peter Frost, or Planet Grok (and others who more or less fit the demographic profile of the GNXP survey from 2009 of young, ex-libertarians) ever argue in favor of Nordicist anti-miscegenation laws against Southern Europeans, argue Italians and Greeks aren't white or are somehow "Arabized", and worship Odin/Thor in their spare time. (But who knows, maybe Half Sigma is secretly into Norse god worship and privately wants to outlaw Southern Euro Americans from marrying Nordic Americans...)

Anyway, I think the WN contingent has long since proven it is unsavory and dysfunctional enough that you can understand if other HBDers don't want to associate with them.

The WNs are of course free to argue whatever they want on their own blogs, they just can't expect to act like carnival freaks and then be shocked that nobody wants to associate in any with them.

[Prime]

I did a post last month on why HBD is preferable to WN even from a WN perspective! Go figure.

http://betarevolution.wordpress.com/2010/03/14/hbd-wn/

[Linda]

"Is there any actual science behind this alleged white/nonwhite dichotomy within the Caucasoid race?"

cavalli sforza would sometimes divide the human species into 9 genetic clusters for the purpose of his genetic linkage tree and in so doing, the caucasoid cluster would be divided into Europeans and non-European caucasoids. I don't know if these were just terms of convenience of objective distinctions, but Richard Lynn interprets them as the latter and has designated non-whites caucasoids as the South Asian/North African race. He considers Southern Europeans/Ashkenazi to be a hybrid of Europeans and South Asians/North Africans.

Of course a simpler explanation is that caucasoids are just one race and the most Northern (Nordics) evolved white skin and the most Southern (India) evolved black skin with Arabs and Italians in the middle.

[Reginald]

"I've never heard of an HBDer such as Half Sigma, Charles Murray, Steven Pinker, Moldbug, Peter Frost, or Planet Grok (and others who more or less fit the demographic profile of the GNXP survey from 2009 of young, ex-libertarians) ever argue in favor of Nordicist anti-miscegenation laws against Southern Europeans, argue Italians and Greeks aren't white or are somehow 'Arabized', and worship Odin/Thor in their spare time."

You don't have to do any of those things to be a White Nationalist.

In fact, the White Nationalist you started this rant by getting on the case of, Svigor, is no more guilty of doing those things than you and Half Sigma are.

[Reginald]

"cavalli sforza would sometimes divide the human species into 9 genetic clusters for the purpose of his genetic linkage tree and in so doing, the Caucasoid cluster would be divided into Europeans and non-European Caucasoid. I don't know if these were just terms of convenience of objective distinctions..."

It was an objective distinction.

The European Caucasian cluster wasn't perfect, no cluster is, but really it was as much an objectively real cluster as any cluster in population genetics.

"Of course a simpler explanation is that caucasoids are just one race and the most Northern (Nordics) evolved white skin and the most Southern (India) evolved black skin with Arabs and Italians in the middle."

It may be simpler, but it's also wrong.

The Indians have darker skin because of Admixture from Proto-Oceanian Stock.

Also it must be noted that Arabs and Italians, on average, are actually much further away from each other than Italians are to other European Caucasian groups.

This sort of thing is why Cavalli Sforza decided to group European Caucasians together into a Subrace of the more general Caucasoid Race.

The different enviroment in Europe, combined with the barriers to admixture from Non-Caucasoid Races, is what forged the European Caucasoid (aka White) Race into existence.

[Linda]

"The European Caucasian cluster wasn't perfect, no cluster is, but really it was as much an objectively real cluster as any cluster in population genetics."

Well when you look at these genetic charts, a clear caucasoid cluster emerges, however the distinction between Europeans and non-white caucasoids is much less obvious:

http://www.amren.com/ar/2000/08/peoples.gif

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/General/Gene_clusters.jpg

"The Indians have darker skin because of Admixture from Proto-Oceanian Stock."

Wouldn't they also have dark skin because they are in a warmer climate than other caucasoids? It's not as if natural selection for skin color stopped once the caucasoid sub-species emerged.

Also, if they have admixture from proto-australoid stock, I would expect the average Indian IQ to be much lower than the IQ's of Arabs. Instead their IQ's are virtually identical (despite the severe malnutrion in India) and some evidence suggests Indian Americans rival Ashkenazi in IQ & achievement. On the other hand, perhaps the australoid Indians have such low IQ's that they can't even be tested (i.e. live in remote tribal regions).

"Also it must be noted that Arabs and Italians, on average, are actually much further away from each other than Italians are to other European Caucasian groups."

I don't know, but when you look at Arabs and Europeans, the two groups seem to blend into each other along a perfect continuum from North to South. There doesn't appear to be a discrete jump where one group ends and the other starts. Don't know if this is because of admixture, or just the gradual change in skin color associated with gradual climate change.

"The different enviroment in Europe, combined with the barriers to admixture from Non-Caucasoid Races, is what forged the European Caucasoid (aka White) Race into existence."

I'm not sure how significant the barrier to admixture between Europeans and non-white caucasoids were. With caucasoids and negroids, there was the formidable Sahara desert largely preventing admixture.

[Fred]

"I'm not sure how significant the barrier to admixture between Europeans and non-white caucasoids were."

There must have been admixture from seafaring southern Europeans such as the Phoenicians who founded settlements in what today are Arab areas.

[Planet Grok]

"With caucasoids and negroids, there was the formidable Sahara desert largely preventing admixture. "

Linda,

I wouldn't say "largelly prevent". There's actually been plenty of gene flow from Africa to Europe, resulting in Europeans being genetically closer to Africans than other races. It rarely went directly from "black" African to "white" European, but rather from black European to North African to Southern European. An example of this are alleles associated with malaria resistance that worked their way up from sub-saharan africa where they originated to Southern European countries, where they went positive selection because malarial outbreaks used to occur in southern Europe.

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_admixture_in_Europe#Sickle_cell_trait

[Linda]

Caucasoids are genetically more similar to negroids than mongoloids are, but I think this has less to do with admixture, and more to do with evolution. All humans were originally African, then some evolved into caucasoids, and then some of the caucasoids evolved into mongoloids, thus mongoloids are two steps away from Africans while caucasoids are only one.

[Planet Grok]

Linda,

There's plenty of evidence of relatively recent gene flow from Africa to Europe and vice versa via the slave trade. The conquering North African Muslims brought with them Sub-Saharan African genes into Sicily and Iberia, some of which offered a fitness advantage and were subsequently selected for, such as malaria resistance. There doesn't have to be large amounts of admixture for gene flow to occur.

Also, "mongoloids" did not evolve from "caucasoids". See what the mtDNA tells us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Migration_map4.png

[Linda]

"Also, "mongoloids" did not evolve from "caucasoids". See what the mtDNA tells us"

It tells us mongoloids evolved from caucasoids. They are the new and improved race and thus genetically superior to everyone else.

[rob]

"It tells us mongoloids evolved from caucasoids. They are the new and improved race and thus genetically superior to everyone else."

lulz. Such silliness. Native Americans evolved from mongoloids, aren't then the super new and improved race?

[Linda]

"lulz. Such silliness. Native Americans evolved from mongoloids, aren't then the super new and improved race?"

Native Americans ARE a sub-race of mongoloids. They did not evolve from mongoloids.

[Planet Grok]

Well, that was a very fitting 88th comment by Linda. I was going to ask how a sub-race could become a sub-race without evolution, but I think I'll leave Linda and her humorously anachronistic racial theories alone for now, even though they read like a (really) bad liberal stereotype of HBD.

Linda, are you basing your theories on any published work you can refer me to, or are you just kind of winging it here?
(I'm not the least bit opposed to winging it, per se. It makes good entertainment. I'm just curious.)