An observation about white supremacists and the mainstream

“Obzerv” wrote in a comment:

As of right now the only people the mainstream is aware of whom implicitly acknowledge HBD are white supremacists. In a sense, this unfortunately gives white supremacists a monopoly on reality and only serves to strengthen their cause.

This is an excellent observation.

Comments

[AshAndMistyInLove]

I think most people implicit acknowledge HBD too; they just do not like explicit acknowledgments of African subhuman intelligence.

[AshAndMistyInLove]

No HS... delete the last comment... I was being a troll... I said that phrase too many times already in such a short amount of time.

[KM]

I would say it weakens the cause of race realism by associating it with something odious. See also the history of eugenics.

[RandyB]

Professor Carol Swain (black conservative) makes similar points. Her book The New White Nationalists acknowledges that some mainstream thinkers have been driven to WN because legitimate discussion of race issues is so taboo in other discourse. As one of the few sympathetic opponents to WN believers, she thinks media, academia and politics need to become more open to honest discourse, lest the WN movement get a monopoly on it.

She makes some sensible suggestions about how to implement this, including reducing the scope of speech codes and creating an environment in which the Sharptons need to make correcting pathological behaviors as important a priority as hunting for racism under every rock.

[dearieme]

You could turn it into a campaign slogan: "Don't give Nazis a monopoly on the truth".

[Obsidian]

So, Half Sigma, given that this is indeed the case from where you sit, the question becomes, how do you and others who think as you do, advance "HBD" in a way that it is taken seriously by the powers that be? Am most interested in reading your response.

Also, I've read tyour piece on Escalante, and must say that I respectfully disagree with your view. I'll have more to say on my blog in the coming days. Stay tuned.

The Obsidian

[Insider]

I disagree. White supremacy, by way of our changing culture, is all but taboo, and anything that is associated with it is also denigrated. How can their cause be strengthened if no one believes their latest argument (HBD) for it on moral grounds?

White supremacists shut people off from HBD in an emotional way. It's much harder to convince someone of an argument they have rejected 'on faith,' rather than one they have rejected 'on the facts they currently know.'

[ATC]

Acknowledging HBD in NAMs is quite acceptable as long as it's spun as an asset. Steve Sailer vociferously defended Dusty Baker's comments about blacks withstanding the heat better than whites, and Baker himself wasn't punished.

The late Reggie White received some grief for his HBD comments, but far less than if he'd been lower-case white.

Or take some comments that would be acceptable to make about Hispanics.

"Hispanics disdain rigid Anglo norms of 'time' and 'schedule.'"

"Hispanic buying power in the beverage-industry space is booming."

[bbartlog]

'Acknowledging HBD in NAMs is quite acceptable as long as it's spun as an asset.'

Yes, and don't forget Jared Diamond's speculations in the opening pages of Guns, Germs and Steel that the New Guinea natives might be smarter than Europeans because of the demands of the HG lifestyle. I actually think that the acceptance of this kind of racial commentary opens an avenue for these discussions in general, at least among people with some sense of fairness. If you lead off by noting areas in which some non-white group is superior it may be possible to gradually broaden the discussion.

[gymquiz]

What you mean is that they are the only group that EXPLICITLY acknowledges HBD.
Where you buy your house, where you rent, where you take a walk, who you work with, where you send the kids to school -- these are all implicit acknowledgements. I.e. what leftists call "structural racism" or "normalizing white behavior"
If more mainstream publications are explicit with HBD, if people spoke about it openly, I really don't think that much would change in society. You probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference on a day to day basis.

[Wade Nichols]

"Also, I've read [sic] tyour piece on Escalante, and must say that I respectfully disagree with your view. I'll have more to say on my blog in the coming days. Stay tuned."

The world waits with bated breath for another pronouncement from the Paris Hilton of internet pundits......."Obsidian"!

A guy who thinks his non-stop inquisitive shtick somehow equates him as an intellectual genius and rebel who "speaks truth to power".

Just don't ask Obsidian about his fawning admiration of Louis Farrakhan! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

[Clack]

Posted by: Wade Nichols | April 05, 2010 at 02:58 PM

Don't waste your time with Black Glass. He doesn't know the difference between the AK and M16.

[miles]

South Korea has the highest national IQ (107).

HBD is kind of a acknowledgement of East Asian IQ supremacy to be honest, with a hat-tip toward the numerically small, but influential Ashkenazi Jewish group also. Whites are further down the list.

To me, HBD, is just acknowledging what IQ tests demonstrate for us very adequately: Some people are smarter than others. Bill Gates, even though I really dont like much of what he does, is definitely smarter than your average convict. If you agree with that statement, then you agree that one human being can be smarter than another human being who is not retarded or developmentally challenged in any recognized medical way. HBD goes further and simply asks you to recognize that if we can measure Bill Gates IQ test results over Dewayne Lamont Washington, the prison-convict.............then you might be able to gather a fair-sized sample group of people surnamed Cohen and another fair-sized sample group of people surnamed Robbins and find that the Cohen's have an average IQ of 113 and the Robbins have an average IQ of 99.

113>99

Left wingers, with nothing left to attack because of the "hate-results" of those tests, will simply tell you that the IQ tests must be racist despite their own lying eyes.

A tactic to get left-wingers to buy into HBD without knowing it would be to use East Asian IQ superiority over whites. Left wingers would be elated to do that. When they find themselves nodding their heads...............then slam them with the difference between East Asian IQ and the IQ of a typically favored minority group (take your pick).

[hm]

white supremacists apply double standard for HBD. When things are in their favor, they acknowlage them. When truth is not in their favor, they deny it.

[bbartlog]

Well that's true almost by definition of white *supremacists*; and indeed I know that even among whites that acknowledge HBD there is often this idea that even if Asians score higher on IQ scores there must be some ineffable genius or creativity which whites possess in greater abundance (an idea which I think is pure bunk). However, in fairness to the WNs, there are plenty who give credit where credit is due, but would still prefer to be able to choose their neighbors. Practically speaking, if you're concerned about your standard of living, the difference between Lagos and (say) Omaha is much greater than that between Omaha and Tokyo, so the question of asian versus white differences just doesn't carry as much weight as the NAM problem.

[pzed]

"A tactic to get left-wingers to buy into HBD without knowing it would be to use East Asian IQ superiority over whites."

too easy. liberals would say that cultural differences explain those details away.

besides, why don't u guys stop using east asians as a foil when HBD proponents really aren't focused on asians? u only want to highlight and re-highlight that NAMs have lower IQs. HBDers really want to restrict immigration and procreation of low IQ ppl, but i haven't seen them advocate a completely IQ based immigration policy that would drastically increase the number of asians. according to them the nation is better off w/ smarter ppl, so why not advocate handing the country over to asians?

oh, but i forgot, asians are still less "creative" than whites even though no one can figure out how to measure that, it's just an a priori truth. so really what you're saying is, "we'll use those model minority asians as a foil nominally, but what we really think is that white folk are still #1. we just can't justify it by any quantitative means."

stop lying to yourselves. admit you guys are out for whitey already and get it over with.

[Wade Nichols]

"Don't waste your time with Black Glass. He doesn't know the difference between the AK and M16."

Wow!

In my youth when I used to read "Jane's All The World's Aircraft" in the junior high library, and other books on assault rifles, I used to know all about RPKs, RPGs, and the subtle differences between the AK-47 and the Chinese Type 56 copy. (Don't ask me now, I've forgotten!)

Even my wife can tell the difference between an M-16 and an AK-47!

I thought all bad ass "Game playing" gangsta wanna-be's knew their assault rifles? Guess not....

"white supremacists apply double standard for HBD. When things are in their favor, they acknowlage them. When truth is not in their favor, they deny it."

That's probably a good way to distinguish "garden variety" HBD adherents from the white supremacist HBD wanna-be's - the "garden variety" types have no problem with what Miles posted just above. The white supremacist types will indeed deny the racial IQ stats.

[Insider]

miles-

Even if IQ tests do in fact measure g almost perfectly, the problem lies in assigning 'value' to people/groups based on just IQ. So when you say things like 'measure us adequately,' that's what it seems like you're implying.

[Legend of Bungo]

The orthodox left wing skeptic of HBD is usually perfectly willing to accept differences in innate intelligence when it comes to bashing their political opponents, but almost never when it comes to explaining the differences in socioeconomic outcomes.

I'd say there are a whole raft of issues that haven't so much been hijacked by the white supremacist crowd, but rather handed to them to exploit and pervert in their singularly illiterate way.

[Obsidian]

Randy B,
I`m familiar with Swain`s work, but I disagree with the notion that somehow, if we can just convince SharptonéJackson etc et al, to shame those NAMs into acting right, things will be alright. First off, neither Men are in a position to either change or implement public policy. Secondly, the excessive focus of WN groups - and some could make a case that the current configuration of the HBDsphere is an extension or offshoot of said community - is something that deserves its own examination, given the fact that few of any of those complaining the loudest have any actual day to day contact and interaction with Black folk. One is tempted to suggest that old primitive notions and motives are at work.

O.

[RT]

The Obsidian said:
"So, Half Sigma, given that this is indeed the case from where you sit, the question becomes, how do you and others who think as you do, advance "HBD" in a way that it is taken seriously by the powers that be? Am most interested in reading your response."

I'll take a crack at this. The biggest thing that will advance HBD is the growth of the NAM populations in the US - as the burdens created by their social disfuntion and lack of human capital coupled with their demand for transfers becomes more unbearable, more and more people will be forced to think about HBD and it implications as a matter of self defense and say BS to NAM demands. Maybe I'm wrong and whites will go out with a whimper, but in any case, the future doesn't bode well for black Americans. As you lose relative population share, you'll be shouldered aside from the gravy trough by the emerging Hispanic juggernaut and don't expect your guilt trips to work on them like they do now on whitey. (And, in the future, as he comes under more duress, don't expect whitey to be that receptive either.)

[Alex Williams]

I disagree – it’s not an accurate observation at all.

HBD is acknowledged by everyone privately – whites, yellows, browns and blacks and also by the high IQ elites. However at this stage of our societal development, open public acknowledgement of HBD (enforced by the controlling elites) is taboo due to a fear of what has happened in the past.

White Nationalists do not have a monopoly on the knowledge of HBD – further, they are deluding themselves that this non-monopoly will give them an advantage. A little knowledge followed up by an incomplete analysis can be dangerous.

[John Smith]

As an Indian American, this is often a point of contention between me and the Steve-Sailer crowd.

[David Alexander]

*To me, HBD, is just acknowledging what IQ tests demonstrate for us very adequately: Some people are smarter than others.*

I'd argue that it proves that some people are superior to other people. One can magically come up some magical garbage explaining how black people will have a few positive traits, but for all intents and purposes, black people lack the one true element that will allow them to be true equals with whites and Asians, and that's IQ. Silly prognostications about equality before the law are nothing as long as one group is poorer than the other.

To be slave to the superior or to live in misery is no way to exist. Death is the only escape.

[Blumenthal]

***If more mainstream publications are explicit with HBD, if people spoke about it openly, I really don't think that much would change in society.***

It would be harder to justify low skill immigration.

[Blumenthal]

***A tactic to get left-wingers to buy into HBD without knowing it would be to use East Asian IQ superiority over whites. Left wingers would be elated to do that. When they find themselves nodding their heads...............then slam them with the difference between East Asian IQ and the IQ of a typically favored minority group (take your pick). ***

Miles,

True left wingers like will deny the importance of IQ for this reason though. Consider the response of PZ Myers to Kanazawa's paper suggesting atheists and liberals had higher IQs than religious believers and conservatives. Reported by Mangan:

"Myers hasn't seen the study either, and his attack on the statistics is nothing but posturing, but more importantly he demonstrates that he's an IQ denialist. He dismisses the vast literature on the validity of IQ tests, the existence of a general factor of intelligence, and the strong correlation that intelligence has with real world success. He obviously has never taken the time to look at the literature on IQ before denouncing it, and has probably got all his so-called knowledge of intelligence testing from Stephen Jay Gould and the NY Times. On the subject of IQ testing, he's an ignoramus - but fools rush in and all that.

It's obvious why he hates it: the implications for the radical egalitarianism of today's liberals aren't so good."

http://mangans.blogspot.com/2010/02/liberal-creationism-of-pz-myers.html

[RandyB]

Obsidian, I don't think those particular steps will suddenly make everything hunky-dory, either. But they are steps that could be accepted by a wider swath of people than say, trying to implement Jared Taylor's view of America would be. As numerous posters have pointed out in different terms, 90% of America praises the Emperor's garments when it comes to racial differences.

I think a couple simple points that could accomplish a great deal are:
1) increase respect for truthful statements and reasonably informed opinions, by not giving the most allegedly-aggrieved listener the greatest possible leeway to treat every statement in the most negative possible light. Too much legitimate discourse has been silenced that way.
2) The pathologies of black (and illegal immigrant, of a similar kind but lesser quantity) behavior are too obvious to let anyone claim to be a "black leader" without addressing them.

[gymquiz]

From about 1964 till 1995, HBD was totally outside of the mainstream. You couldn't read it in any magazine, it was denied at every level from High School to Graduate School. There were no books about it (except denialist literature by Gould etc. we were all required to read in college). So there was about 30 years till The Bell Curve came out. But the book alone couldn't really go anywhere. There were no institutions that could even deal with the questions.

The golden calf worshiping Isrealites had to wander for 40 years, so that none of the "sinning generation" could enter the promised land. This is what happened to HBD. An entire generation had come to pass totally unable to rationally talk about it or study it. HBD as an Internet phenom, began about 2002 or so, ... and I don't think it's going away.

[Thomas Mann]

A few questions regarding how IQs among groups are classified:

- How does one determine if someone is Jewish? Aren't the vast majority of Jewish people in the US of mixed ethnicity? If someone is 25% Jewish/75% white on their dad's side and 100% white on their mom's, is that person categorized as Jewish or white? Does the "mom has to be Jewish" rule count?

- Isn't it unfair to compare an ethnicity to races? I'm sure we would be able to find many IQ difference among various ethnic groups in the US. The problem is that most people are of mixed ethnicity.

-

[Davy]

"besides, why don't u guys stop using east asians as a foil when HBD proponents really aren't focused on asians? u only want to highlight and re-highlight that NAMs have lower IQs."

I agree that HBDers just use E. Asians as a foil. The E. Asian IQ thing is usually just trotted out in order to appear objective and non-biased. In reality though, HBDers don't really care about E. Asian IQ and don't think it's a big deal. They presume that it's just a technicality or that other intangible qualities such as creativity, genius, etc. are either more important or more lacking among E. Asians or something. The real focus is on NAMs and on their pathologies, and on showing how their differences and pathologies are quantifiable, rooted and hard-wired to a large extent, and can't be "corrected" by social or education methods. Thus the point of HBD is to serve as a justification for at the very least a kind of "soft" WN. HBD is supposed to show that nothing can be done to make NAMs "equal" or like whites, therefore their presence and numbers should be limited.

[HS: HBD has no point except the truth. You are describing something else.]

[Jump Down, Turn Around]

"... given the fact that few of any of those complaining the loudest have any actual day to day contact and interaction with Black folk."

I can't imagine why? Wait, maybe it is because watermelon more than 5 times a week is simply too much. Hysterical.

PS: Liberals don't have much contact with "kneegrows" either. No reason for that, just the way things are.

[Twain]

I just read a article by H.L. Mencken in which he said that the Black Death in Europe ushered in the Renaissance because it killed the poor and stupid people disproportionately and that allowed the elites of Europe to stop wasting time in dealing with the lower orders and devote more time to the arts and science. Of course, it wasn't race then, but this was kind of eugenics in action. The article was entitled "Eugenic Note".

He also said about San Francisco that, "The influx of Okies during the Depression, Negroes during WWII and of labor racketeers has afflicted it sorely." And it has also been "afflicted by the great congeries of morons gathered at Los Angeles"

His Chretomathy and 2nd Chrestomathy are very interesting.

[AshAndMistyInLove]

***A tactic to get left-wingers to buy into HBD without knowing it would be to use East Asian IQ superiority over whites. Left wingers would be elated to do that. When they find themselves nodding their heads...............then slam them with the difference between East Asian IQ and the IQ of a typically favored minority group (take your pick). ***

They have a Confucianist culture not superior genes... a left-winger can say that although I am not making an argument. I am simply stating that it is a just a superficially plausible objection.

[superdestroyer]

The problem with HBD and white supremacist is how that want to use HBD in government policy. White supremacist want the government to treat individual whites and blacks differently based upon a different in means of populations.

What HBD supporters need to do is explain how it should be applied to government policy. Discriminating against blacks and Hispanics is a non-starter. However, banning the use of disparate impact should be adopted as policy. Affirmative Action should also be ended because lowest SAT scores for most blacks is understandable.

Unless there are policies and laws that should be changed, then what is the point of discussing HBD.

[rob]

"HBDers really want to restrict immigration and procreation of low IQ ppl, but i haven't seen them advocate a completely IQ based immigration policy that would drastically increase the number of asians. according to them the nation is better off w/ smarter ppl, so why not advocate handing the country over to asians?"

Gee pzed, I dunno. If I score better than you on an IQ test, will you give me your house, your car, and your wife(if any)? Why not?

Does the fact that whites score much higher on IQ tests mean that Africans should hand over their continent? Why not?

When you can answer those questions, you might be on the path to eventually figuring out how someone can think Asians have higher IQs and still prefer Western civilization.

Normal, healthy people like their own kind. Wolfe called it "fiction absolute." Even peoples with nothing at all to be proud of, like Puerto Ricans, are proud of themselves.

Take Obsidian, he feels hbders don't talk enough about the problems of having high IQs. Like how high IQ, atheistic white guys can't pull in the poon. It isn't just to be a dick. Religion and sex are what's important to him. For people who are "spiritual" and all about promiscuous sex, a group that doesn't have those things looks pretty sad.

Self defense is major factor in how (white American) hbders discuss Asians vs. Mexicans and blacks(NAMs). Asians by and large don't claim that their dysfunctions and backwardness are the fault of American whites. To the extent that they do, they don't expect white Americans to fix it. NAMs claim that they are poorer, more likely to kill and be killed, have venereal diseases, fail in school...because whites did something bad to them.

The question of whether there are differences between whites and Asians beyond IQ can be investigated by that ancient technique I like to call "just look!" See how Japanese people live? I don't want to live like that, even though they are smarter. I see that it has advantages like almost no crime, but it has disadvantages.

[AshAndMistyInLove]

"Unless there are policies and laws that should be changed, then what is the point of discussing HBD. "

I suppose it makes some people feel good about themselves when they can talk about how dumb another race is or how much more intelligent they are than average. People like the diversity of the bell curve when they are on the right tail of it (or think they are on it).

[Obsidian]

Randy B,
Replies below:

RB: Obsidian, I don't think those particular steps will suddenly make everything hunky-dory, either. But they are steps that could be accepted by a wider swath of people than say, trying to implement Jared Taylor's view of America would be.

O: Hence the real point of your suggestion and those of you ilk; its about assuaging YOUR feelings about "misbehavin' Black folks", NOT about really addressing their problems. Randy, please answer me this, when has any major initiative been undertaking by merely speaking out on it, or in this case, trying to shame people somehow? White folks FEEL GOOD knowing that there are Black folks who are willing to tell other Black folks about themselves, and the real issue you and others have is that Sharpton and Jackson don't do this. That is a problem neither Man can or should solve; assauging White anxieties isn't a concern Black folks can or should entertain, and again, neither Man has direct control over the formulation, promotion or implementation of public policy in any event. Being much more precise in one's thinking does indeed do wonders.

RB: As numerous posters have pointed out in different terms, 90% of America praises the Emperor's garments when it comes to racial differences.

O: That's because 90% of America believes in the wholly artificial ideals enshrined in the Constitution and are willing to pay the price to realize said goals. That people like Half Sigma don't go on to become masters of the universe is an acceptable loss.

RB: I think a couple simple points that could accomplish a great deal are:

1) increase respect for truthful statements and reasonably informed opinions, by not giving the most allegedly-aggrieved listener the greatest possible leeway to treat every statement in the most negative possible light. Too much legitimate discourse has been silenced that way.

O: OK - so Black folks on average are less intelligent than Whites or Asians. Now what? Repeal Affirmative Action? OK - the biggest beneficiaries of such are White Women. How come no one in the HBDspehere says anything about this?

2) The pathologies of black (and illegal immigrant, of a similar kind but lesser quantity) behavior are too obvious to let anyone claim to be a "black leader" without addressing them.

O: The prison population exploded over the past few decades, proof positive that said "pathologies" are indeed being addressed, and quiet as is kept often at the insistence of African Americans themselves. What a Black leader chooses to advocate on and about, is something to be determined by those who have designated him or her as such, not by those on the outside looking in who don't have a dog in the fight in the first place.

Holla back

The Obsidian

[Thomas Mann]

HBD is too broad a term for what Sigma, Sailer, and the White Supremacy groups tout. What they tout should be called "Human intelligence diversity" since their discourse predominantly focuses on differences of intelligence between races, and they rarely discuss differences of other characteristics between races. I do find it a tad upsetting that they tend to discount NAM achievements presumptuously explaining them by asserting, "they are good at improvising" or "it's because of Affirmative Action" or "the skill is not G loaded". Why do they have a hard time accepting the achievements of NAMs?

I also think their argument that most people, namely liberals, are in denial or flat out disbelieve in HBD is a strawman arguement. I don't think most people believe that everyone is capable of doing anything if they just tried hard enough (certain few Christians and libertarians excepted). Most people realize that everyone has certain limitations that make it unlikely for them to succeed at certain things.

[RandyB]

Obsidian, I'm not exactly sure what points you're trying to make, but mine are:
1) nothing will work without improvement in black underclass behavior that no one else can do much about (for example, with government programs)
2) we will keep pushing mis-guided programs as long as we can't have honesty about discussing 1)
3) we can't have the discussions about 2) as long large numbers of people have leeway to call such discussions offensive, by blaming their behavior instead of slavery for their circumstances

[anotheranon]

O: OK - so Black folks on average are less intelligent than Whites or Asians. Now what? Repeal Affirmative Action? OK - the biggest beneficiaries of such are White Women. How come no one in the HBDspehere says anything about this?

Me: Probably because most people aren't afraid of a white woman doctor giving them a wrong diagnosis, botching a surgical procedure or generally being incompetent. A doctor requires at least a 120 IQ and there just aren't that many blacks that meet that criterion. Therefore it's a risk to society to promote blacks to high IQ professions with AA since it has serious consequences for everybody. For a recent example of this look no further than the incompetent black doctors that were responsible for Donda West's and MJ's death. And I'm getting tired of you accusing HBDers of being racists. In this part of the blogosphere, most of us have no interest in white nationalism. The fact that you say positive things about the NOI and people like Elijah Muhammad and Calypso Louie not only makes you a hypocrite but also a disgusting human being. Do you really believe white people were created by an evil African scientist name Jakub? Is your IQ that low?

[not too late]

"I just read a article by H.L. Mencken in which he said that the Black Death in Europe ushered in the Renaissance because it killed the poor and stupid people disproportionately"

Kind of like HIV.

[not too late]

"nothing can be done to make NAMs "equal" or like whites, therefore their presence and numbers should be limited."

Don't overlook the fact that NAM's themselves benefit tremendously from being minorities in liberal western democracies. Jews and Asians benefit also, that is why they keeping coming and staying. The difference is Jews and Asians also enjoy some social status but NAM's generally don't.

[HS: Jews aren't a minority. No one can tell them apart from Christians, not even other Jews, and certainly not the WNs who hate them so much.]

[jef]

The front line is education. If gaps can't be closed here social explanations for reality will suffer.

[not too late]

"Jews aren't a minority. No one can tell them apart from Christians,"

Yes, of course, but that doesn't mean they have never been disadvantaged by discrimination.

[Linda]

[HS: Jews aren't a minority. No one can tell them apart from Christians, not even other Jews, and certainly not the WNs who hate them so much.]

Anyone with an above average IQ can quickly identify when someone is Jewish just by looking at them. It takes a lot more more visual pattern recognition than identifying when someone is black or East Asian, but it's pretty obvious most of the time.

[Seymour]

Does our government not implicitly acknowledge HBD by restricting immigration from Mexico and Latin America, while promoting efficacy in immigration from Canada and allowing "diversity immigrant visas" to European and Oceanic countries?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DV_eligible_countries.png

[obzerv]

I'm quite flattered.

[Obsidian]

RandyB,
Replies below:

RB: Obsidian, I'm not exactly sure what points you're trying to make, but mine are:
1) nothing will work without improvement in black underclass behavior that no one else can do much about (for example, with government programs)

O: Most African Americans are NOT "underclass"; and to the extent that they are living their lives largely free of such behaviors, I really don't see much point for them or anyone else to have to be compelled to "address" said underclass in order tio make angst-ridden Whites like you feel better.

RB: 2) we will keep pushing mis-guided programs as long as we can't have honesty about discussing 1)

O: There is nothing "misguided" about Affirmative Action. We as a society have decided that it is important that our nation is reflected in its professions by its people, which are more than nerdy White guys. Yes, this can and possibly will mean that we may lose a bit in terms of "standards"; so be it. Again, that Half Sigma or guys like him don't become masters of the universe is something we as a society have stated, implicitly or otherwise, that we're willing to deal with as the price we pay for being more inclusive. Don't like it, take it up with your fellow white powers that be.

RB: 3) we can't have the discussions about 2) as long large numbers of people have leeway to call such discussions offensive, by blaming their behavior instead of slavery for their circumstances

O: So long as most African Americans aren't indeed underclass, and they aren't, it is inxdeed offensive. Black crime rates are being addressed, the proof of that is the explosion of prisons being built, more police on the streets, and longer prison sentences being meted out. Moreover, since you and most who think like you don't live among such "NAMs" anyway, the real question is why do you spend so much time obsessing about the misbehavin' of Black folk you will never spend much time around in the first place. You're barking up the wrong tree, Randy. Find another hobby that gives a greater return on investment.

The Obsidian

[AshAndMistyInLove]

"Anyone with an above average IQ can quickly identify when someone is Jewish just by looking at them. It takes a lot more more visual pattern recognition than identifying when someone is black or East Asian, but it's pretty obvious most of the time."

Linda... stop... IQ is not everything. Half-Sigma posted awhile ago that face recognition is not g-loaded.